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Author Topic: Understanding Spay & Neuter Exemptions  (Read 579 times)
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Tank N Michele
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« on: April 21, 2008, 04:16:30 PM »

   I've yet to come across anyone else's commentary on the liberal amount of EXEMPTIONS that are offered under Mandatory Spay & Neuter laws. and I started wondering if people are too worried about their personal rights to see what Mandatory Spay & Neuter is really designed to accomplish.

   Mandatory Spay & Neuter is about reducing pet overpopulation so shelters stop filling up with unwanted dogs.  Mandatory sterilization is not designed to take away the rights of LEGIMATE breeders or RESPONSIBLE owners who show, handle or work with pure-bred dogs.  Mandatory spay & neuter is designed to stop people who exploit animals and cause them to suffer.

   Below is an example of the exemptions offered by Los Angeles Dept. of Animal Care & Control.  You can see how owners with service dogs or show dogs could easily meet the requirements to get an exemption and continue to do exactly the same things they already do with their dogs.  I think the exceptions are well thought-out and anyone who can't qualify for one of these exemptions is really NOT the kind of person who needs to be breeding their dog as far as I am concerned.

"By spaying or neutering your dog, you are helping solve the problem of pet overpopulation and protecting your dog from potential harm. However, since some dogs cannot be spayed or neutered for certain reasons, this ordinance has exemptions for these cases. These are:

1. Dogs which are unable to be spayed or neutered without a high likelihood of suffering serious bodily harm or death due to age or infirmity. Written confirmation from a licensed veterinarian is required to qualify for this exception.

2. Dogs used by law enforcement agencies for law enforcement purposes.

3. Service or assistance dogs that assist disabled persons.

4. Competition dogs. A Competition Dog is a dog which is used to show, to compete or to breed, which is of a breed recognized by and registered with the American Kennel Club (AKC), United Kennel Club (UKC), American Dog Breeders Association (ADBA) or other department approved breed registries. The dog or owner must also meet ONE of the following requirements:
   a. The dog has competed in at least one dog show or sporting competition sanctioned by a national registry or approved by the department within the last 365 days; or
   b. The dog has earned a conformation, obedience, agility, carting, herding, protection, rally, sporting, working or other title from a purebred dog registry referenced above or other registry or dog sport association approved by the department; or
   c. The owner or custodian of the dog is a member of a department approved purebred dog breed clubs, which maintains and enforces a code of ethics for dog breeding that includes restrictions from breeding dogs with genetic defects and life threatening health problems that commonly threaten the breed."
(from http://animalcare.lacounty.gov/cms1_045463.asp#TopOfPage)

   So if Mandatory Spay & Neuter is set up to include exemptions that excuse dogs that are too frail to safely get spay or neuter surgery, allows pure-bred dogs that are active in a national kennel club to stay intact so they can compete; and allows law enforcement and service animals to stay intact so they can develop their full muscle tone; then why aren't there more breed afficianados getting behind a law that focuses on mutts and dogs with no title and no pedigree?

         Attempts to block Mandatory Spay & Neuter laws end up supporting and encouraging back yard breeders who are filling up our animal shelters with unhealthy, non-conformation dogs.  Acting like Spay & Neuter mandates are a blanket attempt to take away the civil rights of all dog owners is really overlooking the positive effects mandatory sterilization could have on improving the life of the average pet that is not being used as a show dog or service animal.
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« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2008, 02:00:33 AM »

I absolutely agree! I actually went onto the California state website and read their law in it's entirety. I personally think it would be a great start to solving the problem of dog overpopulation.

I haven't actually heard what the people against laws like this have to say and I'd love to hear their reasoning for being against  the law; maybe they make some valid points, but from my point of view these exemptions make the law perfectly legitimate.

I agree that if you have a dog that doesn't meet the listed criteria it SHOULD be altered. There is no reason for anyone to have a mixed breed dog (or pure bred family pet) that has not been altered. It would also stop this outrageous trend of 'designer "breeds"'...but don't even get me started on people paying thousands of dollars on a mutt that they could find at any shelter.... wtf1
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« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2008, 02:49:33 PM »

Thank you Unapologetic!

I think the main argument I hear against the idea of making spay & neuter mandatory is that people feel dogs are their personal property and there is a Constitutional issue about state governments stepping in to tell pet owners what they can and can't do with "their property".

Personally I have difficulty thinking of an affectionate pet as a piece of property, but generally under the existing laws,  human owners are punished if their dog is abused in their care, and are held legally liable if their dog gets loose and hurts someone, and bearing those responsibilities sets up the argument that they are a person's property.  The Constitution asserts that individuals have the right to enjoy their "property" without having to put up with  unreasonable search and seizures, etc. and some people feel that a pet sterilization law would intrude on that very same personal freedom.

Most often I think it's really noble when someone wants to make sure the Constitution is honored, but America as already had their shot at the system of personal responsibilty when it comes to spay & neuter and it has proven that it fails miserabley.  It's ended up filling our shelters with young and healthy dogs that should have the rest of their lives ahead of them instead of being euthanized.

I respect our Constitution and appreciate all the civl rights we are blessed with, but I remain convinced that the Founding Fathers did not intend for any part of the Constitution to be used to allow for or to condone animal exploitation.

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« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2008, 04:28:52 PM »

What for someone who breeds hog dogs? Or terriers that go to ground outside of the accepted trials? How about hounds that hunt great but not under a club program? I don't think the problem people have is that mutts and such need to be fixed, it's that it is being forced and we have all seen where this goes. BSL is a prime example. Ban aggressive dogs. Then dogs that look aggressive (pit bulls). Then dogs that look like the dogs that look aggressive. Then dogs over a certain weight. Ect. Give them an inch and they will shit all over your rights. It's been done before. There are plenty of dogs out there worthy of being bred that have never walked into a show ring. The conformation rings are WAY overrated. Someone who has worked the breed knows how they need to be conformed far better then someone who read out of a booklet. Patterdale judges who've never seen a dog go to ground, sighthound judges who've never even seen a dog course, Border Collie judges who've never seen a dog herd. Not even seen it let alone have years in expierience doing it.


AKC AmStaff... Why are dogs like these........

CH Commander


CH Knight


CH Big Tex


Constantly placed above ones like these.....





Quotes from the AKC standard...

"agile and graceful"
"neck Medium length."
"Back Fairly short. Slight sloping from withers to rump with gentle short slope at rump to base of tail. Loins slightly tucked."

All three of those first CHs fail miserably not even considering their basic structure.


UKC American Pit Bull Terrier...

The dogs winning....

GR CH Bogan


CH Cairo


CH Buster Jo


And the dogs who actually meet the standard.





Quotes from the UKC standard...

"medium-sized"
"well-defined musculature"
"both powerful and athletic"
"length of the front leg (measured from point of elbow to the ground) is approximately equal to one-half of the dog's height at the withers"
"head is of medium length"
"This breed combines strength and athleticism with grace and agility and should never appear bulky or muscle-bound or fine-boned and rangy"
"exaggerations or faults should be penalized"
"Supraorbital arches over the eyes are well defined but not pronounced"
"Cheek muscles are prominent but free of wrinkles"
"The length of muzzle is shorter than the length of skull, with a ratio of approximately 2:3"
"Lips are clean and tight"
"neck is of moderate length"
"skin on the neck is tight and without dewlap"
"Faults: Neck too short and thick; thin or weak neck; ewe neck; dewlap"
"The shoulder blades are long, wide, muscular, and well laid back. The upper arm is roughly equal in length to the shoulder blade and joins it at an apparent right angle."
"The elbows are set close to the body"
"Viewed from the front, the forelegs are set moderately wide apart and perpendicular to the ground."
"Faults: Upright or loaded shoulders; elbows turned outward or tied-in; down at the pasterns; front legs bowed; wrists knuckled over; toeing in or out"
"The chest is deep, well filled in, and moderately wide with ample room for heart and lungs, but the chest should never be wider than it is deep."
"loin is short, muscular and slightly arched to the top of the croup, but narrower than the rib cage"
"croup is slightly sloping downward"
"bone, angulation, and musculature of the hindquarters are in balance with the forequarters"
"hock joint is well bent and the rear pasterns are well let down and perpendicular to the ground"
"actual weight and height are less important than the correct proportion of weight to height. Desirable weight for a mature male in good condition is between 35 and 60 pounds. Desirable weight for a mature female in good condition is between 30 and 50 pounds"

The above CHs failed more then 70% of the UKC standard. Sad.



ADBA/AADR pits.....

CH Chola


CH Onyx


GR CH Badger


And dogs that meet the standard...






Quotes from the standards...

"HEAD short and deep, as compared with most other breeds"
"elbow should be even with the chest"
"elbow should not turn in or out"
"body should be muscular with good bone"
"tail should be shaped like a pump handle, with the tip about even with the hock"
"Equal angulation of front and rear assembly"
"Too long a loin causes the dog to
carry excessive weight and affect a dogs agility and quickness"
"CHEST Deep and elliptical"
"bottom of the ribcage should at least be
even with the elbow joint"
"Scapula well laid back, 45 degree or less angle to the ground, and broad and flat
allowing for adequate muscular attachment for a heavy and sturdy front end"
"elbow comes to the bottom of the
ribcage, elbows lying flat against the body"
"Forearms are slightly longer than the humerus and solid, twice the thickness of the metatarsal at the hock"
"HEAD Wedge shaped when viewed from the top or side"
"length from the nose to the stop should equal the length from the stop to the back of the head"
"head should be deep from the top of the head to the bottom of the jaw"
"Straight box like muzzle"

The first three CHs again do not meet the standard.

And what about this APBT registered dog...



An ACE of ACE pull dog. Worth being intact according to that law. Only one problem, he's an American Bulldog/Dogue de Bordeaux mix. Not one APBT gene in him. That is a well known fact. There is an entire bloodline of APBT registered Whopper dogs. Mandatory spay/neuter may help some. The problem is all the great dogs that don't meet up to the governments standards who will not be bred and all the crappy ones that will.

Someone sent me this in an email. It's a good read.


There was a chemistry professor in a large college who had some exchange students in the class.
  One day, while the class was in the lab, the professor noticed one young man, an exchange student,
  who kept rubbing his back and stretching as if his back hurt.

  The professor asked the young man what was the matter. The student told him he had a bullet
lodged in his back .  Communists in his native country, who were trying to overthrow his country's
government and install a new communist regime, had shot him while he was fighting them.

  In the midst of his story, he looked at the professor and asked: "Do you know how to catch wild pigs?"
The professor thought it was a joke and asked for the punch line. The young man said that it was no joke.

"You catch wild pigs by finding a suitable place in the woods and putting corn on the ground. The pigs find it and begin to come
 every day to eat the free corn. When they are used to coming every day, you put a fence down one side of the place
where they are used to coming. When they get used to the fence, they begin to eat the corn again and you put up another
side of the fence. They get used to that and start to eat again. You continue until you have all four sides of the fence
up with a gate in the last side. The pigs, which are used to the free corn, start to come through the gate to eat that free
corn again. You then slam the gate on them and catch the whole herd. Suddenly the wild pigs have lost their freedom. They run
around and around inside the fence, but they are caught. Soon they go back to eating the free corn. They are so used to it that they have forgotten how to forage in the woods for themselves, so they accept their captivity."

  The young man then told the professor that is exactly what he sees happening in America. The government keeps pushing us
toward Communism/Socialism and keeps spreading the free corn out in the form of programs such as supplemental income, tax credit for unearned income,  tax exemptions, tobacco subsidies, dairy subsidies, payments not to plant crops (CRP),welfare, medicine, drugs, etc..
while we continually lose our freedoms, just a little at a time.
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"A great civilization is not conqured from without until it has destroyed itself from within."  - W. Durant[/c
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« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2008, 06:23:32 PM »

Man that was an extremely long rant about pit bull bloodlines and clearly something you feel passionately about.  Was your point that you not only disagree with mandatory spay & neuter, but also think the exemptions are poorly thought out?
 
I got distracted by all that other stuff you brought up.  I think picking apart the breed standards made up by the various kennel clubs is a bit off topic for this thread, but since you brought it up.....

Quoting the AKC standard without mentioning it is their description for the American Staffordshire Terrier; and failing to mention that the AKC has no official standard for the American Pit Bull Terrier because they have yet to officially acknowledge that breed within their club, was kind of misleading on your part.

Then comparing the AmStaff standard from AKC to the American Pit Bull Standard from the UKC, seemed like an apples-to-oranges comparison made just to support your point of view.  Unless you are one of those people who think that the AmStaff and APBT are the same breed of dog?  Some people think they are not two different breeds of dog but rather a game bred and show bred version of the same dog.  Part of the problem is that the same bully can have dual-titles as an AmStaff in the AKC and as a APBT in the UKC.  Again, I already know how the dog clubs have these arbitrary practices and it does not change my view that mandatory spay & neuter has liberal exemptions.

Every dog you used in your examples would be exempt from mandatory spay & neuter just based on being active in a club and having a CH title, even the mixed breed AmBull (I love AmBulls!).  I already know that the different dog clubs have different breed standards and especially when it comes to the bully breeds, they often contradict each other.  If you really wanted to make a point about it, you should let readers know that while one dog club will not admit pit bulls that are all white or have blue eyes, pits with those traits are not only admitted to other kennel clubs but become Champions.

Still, I'm not sure how the idea of spaying & neutering all breeds of dogs turned into a comparison about how dog clubs judge pit bull conformation compared to how you judge conformation.  Are you a member of a dog club, and if so, which one?  There are so many and they are all so different, I would be interested to know if you consider any of them worthy of your membership.  How do you  put your wealth of knowledge about conformation to use? I mean, have you judged any events or do you breed and sell dogs or something?

I already made peace with the arbitrary judging process used by dog judges a long time ago when my parents had show dogs in the AKC.  I agree it is a bunch of stuff made up by judges and club members that may or may not truly reflect how great a dog is.  That is why I did not grow up to want my own pure-bred show dogs and why I have always owned rescue dogs instead.

I also do not disagree with what you said about hunting dogs that are not in clubs.  But if it becomes necessary, there IS more than one way to get a dog into a dog club other than it being pure-bred or having a pedigree, like the ILP (Indefinite Listing Priveledge) offered by the AKC.  It doesn't allow the dog to compete for breed conformation but it is welcome to participate in agility and other competions .  I'm sorry I have no idea what a hog dog is and I'm not familiar with working terriers for something other than agility or conformation, but I have nothing but respect for good sporting and working dogs and think they are important to keep around.

What I do know is that dogs bred for work or competition, are usually the apple of their owner's eye and much more selectively bred than the puppies generated by back yard breeders.  I am also sure something has to be done to target the group of people filling up America's shelters with abandoned dogs, and the amount of animals dumped there is a clear indication that the current system of optional spay & neuter is failing miserabley.
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« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2008, 07:26:40 PM »

Quote
Was your point that you not only disagree with mandatory spay & neuter, but also think the exemptions are poorly thought out?

Both.


Quote
I think picking apart the breed standards made up by the various kennel clubs is a bit off topic for this thread

Yes it was and I am sorry for being off topic. It was brought up because one of the things they are basing a dog being worthy of keeping it's parts on is that. There are TONS of dogs out there worthy of being bred who've never been shown. There are even more dogs out there that are titles show dogs and not worth breeding. If I've got to have an overdone shell of an APBT to compete in their competitions and have my dogs intact then I will switch breeds. At that point it is no longer an APBT in my eyes. There are many breeders of quality pure bred dogs that don't register with a club either. What for them? Entire good lines of APBT ended for that?


Quote
Quoting the AKC standard without mentioning it is their description for the American Staffordshire Terrier; and failing to mention that the AKC has no official standard for the American Pit Bull Terrier because they have yet to officially acknowledge that breed within their club, was kind of misleading on your part.

I wrote "AKC AmStaff". It's right above the photos. You are right though, I did not mention the AKC does not recognize APBT. That was not intentional at all, I just assumed that was known.


Quote
Then comparing the AmStaff standard from AKC to the American Pit Bull Standard from the UKC, seemed like an apples-to-oranges comparison made just to support your point of view.

Well you missed the point entirely. It was not AKC vs UKC vs AADR and ADBA, it was what is being placed in the show ring compared to what actually meets the standard of each registry. The first three AmStaffs are CH show dogs that don't come close to meeting the standard. The next two are dogs conformed according to the AKC standard (which is not very detailed) but would usually be placed before the first type of Amstaff. In AKC they go for overdone dogs with flashy markings. In UKC they go for overdone dogs. In ADBA and AADR they go for rangy dogs. None of the dogs that usually place in the show ring conform to the actual standard but rather to a trend.


Quote
Unless you are one of those people who think that the AmStaff and APBT are the same breed of dog?

Long ago, but not anymore. I believe they are far different.


Quote
Every dog you used in your examples would be exempt from mandatory spay & neuter just based on being active in a club and having a CH title

Exactly. And the 9 CHs are all poor examples of their breed while the 6 others are correct. It may cut down backyard breeding some but it also encourages breeding poor quality dogs.


Quote
even the mixed breed AmBull (I love AmBulls!)

I do too but you missed the point again. Smiley He is a mutt with NO APBT blood and there are thousands of registered "apbts" down from him. They are fine dogs for what they do but they aren't APBTs. They are APBT registered mutts and the mandatory spay/neuter encourages the breeding of those dogs based on registry and fad, not merit.


Quote
If you really wanted to make a point about it, you should let readers know that while one dog club will not admit pit bulls that are all white or have blue eyes, pits with those traits are not only admitted to other kennel clubs but become Champions.

Well I didn't see how that had anything to do with the point I was trying to make, but yeah. AmStaffs shouldn't be more then 80% white and they should have dark noses and dark skin around the eyes. Best part of the AKC standard IMO. UKC, ADBA, and AADR dogs can CH out with that lack of pigment with usually no trouble.


Quote
I'm not sure how the idea of spaying & neutering all breeds of dogs turned into a comparison about how dog clubs judge pit bull conformation compared to how you judge conformation

It has nothing to do with how I judge it, though that is how, it has to do with what is the breed standard which the judges would be going by vs what the judges are placing. And yes, it is WAY more off topic then I intended to go. I am sorry.


Quote
Are you a member of a dog club, and if so, which one?

UKC, ADBA, AADR, SDR, ARBA, ICCF, and a few others.


Quote
How do you  put your wealth of knowledge about conformation to use? I mean, have you judged any events or do you breed and sell dogs or something?

I am an AADR and UKC judge. I was with ADBA as well but left and have not renewed it in a few years. I do breed on occasion. I keep my pups and have given out a few over the years to people I know well. I have not ever sold an APBT pup nor have I ever bred a litter with the intention of selling or giving away more then a few pups. My dogs tend to have large litters. Last litter I had was late 2006 and she had 13 pups. Her only litter. No need for the attitude. I don't have one and I'm sorry if it came across that way.


Quote
I agree it is a bunch of stuff made up by judges and club members that may or may not truly reflect how great a dog is.

EXACTLY. That was my point. This encourages the breeding of overdone show dogs and all but eliminates breeding of working dogs.


Quote
It doesn't allow the dog to compete for breed conformation but it is welcome to participate in agility and other competions

Then it is ok to force people to LP their dogs and make them learn, go to class for, and show in recognized dog sports just so they can breed a dog who's proven himself outside of the show ring?


Quote
I'm sorry I have no idea what a hog dog is
Bay and catch dogs. APBT, AmBulls, Fila, Black Mouth Curs, Plotts, Walkers, Viszla, ect. Sometimes mixes of those. Dogs bred to hunt boar. They are not being sold in the paper and backyard bred. They are not overpopulated. Working dogs never are because it takes effort to breed dogs that can work. It's people sticking two dogs together for stupid reasons that are causing overpopulation so I don't understand a law going after those.


Quote
working terriers for something other than agility or conformation

Well that is showing, not working. A "working" Patterdale, Border Collie, whatever, is a dog doing what it's bred for. A working terrier is a dog that goes to ground and hunts virmin.



The UKC started a program to limit the amount of breeding done. I think it'd be great if the AKC and others jumped on board. Not allowed to register more then 5 litters a year without inspection and their are fines for registering more then 2 litters a year. The registration cost sky rockets. The idea being to make it no longer profitable to breed more then 2 litters a year. People want papers on their dog. An $800 papered AmStaff pup drops to a $100 pup without papers. This encourages better breeding practices and makes back yard breeding far less profitable without taking away anybody's rights. That I can back whole heartedly. Someone coming to me and telling me I'm required to put my dog through the risks of a surgery because they don't think he/she is worth being bred I've got a problem with. Nobody is taking a knife to my dog without just cause and my consent.
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"He will not cower, he will not cry. To be called a cur, he would rather die. A cur and a fighter are not the same. A cur is a quitter, but a fighter is game."  - Floyd Boudreaux

"A great civilization is not conqured from without until it has destroyed itself from within."  - W. Durant[/c
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« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2008, 09:09:48 PM »

Attitude?  You mean the part where I made a thinly veiled attempt to find out how credible you were? I can see how lousy that seems and I apologize.  I also appreciate you explaining what your life with dogs is like in actions and not just in words.  Walking your talk makes a big difference to me when it comes to who I'd consider a mentor with valid pit bull advice icon_thumleft versus stuff I'm likely to forget about after reading it.  Plus I think if you knew all that stuff and just carried it around in your head without putting it to good use, would be a shame.
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« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2008, 09:27:34 PM »

Smiley No problem. And again sorry for getting off topic.
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"A great civilization is not conqured from without until it has destroyed itself from within."  - W. Durant[/c
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« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2008, 10:17:42 AM »

Back on topic  2 Thumbs Up! ...
I've said it before; if everyone was a responsible owner, we wouldn't need laws like this.  The majority of owners aren't responsible though, and it doesn't take many to cause an enormous disaster and huge glut of unowned/unwanted dogs.
The problem is that these irresponsible idiots won't pay any attention to mandatory spay/neuter laws, and except for a few very well off communities, the local governments won't have the time money or manpower to enforce them. 
Who's gonna enforce these laws?  Cops? Already so overworked with serious crimes, they sure as hell aren't going to take the time to look between a dogs legs.  Vets? Yeah right.  We are a wierd mixture of part business person/ part public health official.  One problem is that vets have no legal ability for enforcement of laws- we call the state veterinarian and make it their problem.  Second, all it would take is one irate owner calling the local news and starting a sob story about how cruel the vet was to fine or confiscate their beloved pet just because they hadn't neutered him.  The media loves crap like that regardless of what the laws are, and that would be the kiss of death for your business.  I've seen shit like that happen, and the clinics business plummeted.  Finally, I am already so far behind on paperwork, that I bring home a pile of charts a foot thick every weekend to finish writing up; God help me if I had to start government forms on TOP of that.
Finally, animal control officers are both totally undermanned AND underfunded already, there is no way they could enforce a new law like that.  Hell, they can't even enforce the rabies ordinances most of the time.

I would love to see every person who owns a dog be responsible and either castrate their dog, or keep their fancy purebred confined and control its breeding oppurtunities.   Unless there is a massive upswing in the intelligence and sense of responsiblility of humanity in general, a mandatory spay/neuter law will have all the effectiveness of tissue paper handcuffs.   violent1
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« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2008, 11:33:59 PM »

Duh, forgot to write the main reason for the post.  Bottom line, with or without the exemptions, I just don't see how a law like this would be enforceable to any extant. 
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